What kind of link is there between religion and mysticism? [my brain as of july 19 1994]

“Perhaps there is a small Wizard inside of every quark,” KU 7/19/1994

What kind of link is there between religion and mysticism?


> FINALLY…a good question on this new newsgroup!  Well, IMHO, the
> link is experience.

You’re welcome, Barry.  Despite some arguments to the contrary that I’ve
heard, you have provided me with further proof that truth exists in the
questioning, and not the answers.  The question is a catalyst for more
questions, and the answer links together the multitude of questions.

You can’t have an answer without a question.

But you can have questions without answers.  Questioning is the only
pathway to truth.
It is related to what you say here —  religion = spirituality through
faith and ultimate trust, mysticism = experience leading to spirituality
and ultimate trust.

The difference between the two?  One asks the questions (mysticism).
The other accepts the answers (religion).

Both are valid paths towards finding the deep spirit inside of you, but
each works for different people.

Thoughts?  How reasonable are my thoughts here?

| Ken Udut | | Send me E-Mail requesting addition to the Optimism Digest
| Composer/Performer (Piano) on Union Records
| Listowner of Y-RIGHTS@SJUVM.BITNET – Kid/Teen RIghts Discussion Group
| Myers-Briggs Temperment Index: INFP | | -*[ ku…@ritz.mordor.com ]*-


You’re welcome, Barry :-)  Providing thoughtful questions, provoking
interest and being a catalyst to curiousity, is far more fastinating
than providing answers, which is how school-taught students of life tend
to do things.  You are taught to provide answers, but to let the
questions come from elsewhere.

Not to get sappy, but children have it all correct here.  Questions,
questions, so many questions.  Returning to a child-like state of wonder
is the biggest step you can take towards melting into the stream of
things, whatever that may be.

Curiousity is the only road to learning, IMHO.

Well, I’m finding out as each day passes, that the old wisdom is right.
You already know the answers to most of your questions — but at times
you need others to act as rubber sheets, bouncing questions off of them,
and finding a piece of yourself in whatever they say.

Until you find someone who is reasonably close to the way you think
about a question, you won’t “find the answer”.


A further question – maybe someone can help me with my thoughts here…

Are there any religions or manifestations of personal spirituality (is
that a valid way of saying it?) that AREN’T valid ways of finding your
path in life / soul / creator?


Are you certain?  I wonder, Alan — why would any culture need to
provide one -big- answer when there aren’t enough small answers?  What
drives us to NOT simply accept things the way they are, and instead try
to find answers?

Isn’t the creation of a God in our own image (or God who created us in
his own image – we may never know which came first) a good answer?

It seems to link up with one rule of thumb I hear — let the little
things sort themselves out, and worry about what’s really important.
“Don’t sweat the small stuff” is another way of putting it.  Isn’t
creating a God/acknowledging that a God/s exists a way of looking at the
big picture, rather than fretting over trivial details?

Or am I off base?


But, in all honesty, do doctors really cure anything?  Do doctors heal
the broken bones?  Do doctors stop infection?

Doctors are really smart people who know how to get reactions from the
body that promote healing.  But — the healing process — what does that
stem from?

Any doctor (unless they are overly arrogant :-> ) will say that they act
as promoting the process of healing.  But the healing process — the
fact that cut nerve endings somehow “know” how to get back together —
the fact that broken bones bond back together again…  how does this
happen?  Why does this happen?

Doctors are expert at what they do.  But they are assistants to the
body’s healing process.  Again — maybe you know a little more than I do
on the subject (and I’m interested!) — how does the body heal?
Coincidence?  Pure chance?  I honestly want to understand more.


The Pope was very smart in saying this.  He realized that science has
better tools for discovering internal body quirks.  The Pope wasn’t
saying, “Science is doing God’s work”.  He is saying, “Science is
assisting God’s work”.  God/higher power/mystical force that binds
things…  in thousands of years we haven’t come up with an answer that
suits everyone.  But it’s something more than the eyes can see.

Perhaps there is a small Wizard inside of every quark, telling it, “Push
your host body (proton, whatever) to do thus and so”.  Or maybe a grand
wizard programmed things down to the most intricate working levels.  I
can’t believe that it happened by accident.


But accurate reality is a subjective reality.  There is no objective
reality – no one rule that binds us all.  I believe in scientific
discovery.  I also believe that there’s more to life than science.  Some
of the greatest people in the past… people whose lives transcended
cultures (who will remember Louis Pasteur 1000 years from now?) all by
believing in something greater and far better than themselves.  That
indicates, very scientifically, that there must be something to it —
that it works.


Interesting!  I never knew of such a thing.  “Every thought has been
thought before, and is yet new every time it is thought.”  My way of
putting an old phrase which I’ve long forgotten.


I like that line of thought.  I’ve had trouble reconciling a God
existing before everything, unless the God existed in -another- realm
that came before everything as we know it.  So, I just gave up on
worrying about “how it all began” for the moment, and am thinking about
things as they are now.  How many different words are there for that
weird force that seems to bind people, animals, plants and things


But it is impossible for one to be completely objective.  Apathy – the
“I don’t care about that situation, so here is what I see.” is
surprisingly close to objectivism, in my mind.  But how can there truly
be an objective reality?  Even down to the smallest of particles, each
particle experiences everything differently.  We can reach agreement as
to what is an “objective reality”, but what makes it the right reality?

That’s why I question the existence of an objective reality at all.  But
I want to hear otherwise – I might not have as much of the “whole
picture” in my mind as I would like.


But to find one’s true self, don’t you have to discover something
greater than yourself?  To find your true self, Lee, you have to be
filled with humility.  Humble.  If you’re *not* humbling yourself in the
search for self, then you risk becoming arrogant or overly promoting
yourself (even to a fractional amount).

And to humble, you need to humble yourself to something greater than

Am I making any sense here, or does it sound like ramble?


Well, I’m actually not at all familiar with what the Pope said when he
said, as the first time I heard of it was here.  But you are right, of
course :-)  What people say (especially when they talk about others)
only speaks about themselves, and not about the person they’re talking

In my way of thinking, I believe that it is your reaction that is
important, and not so much the action.  Now, there are commonly held
reactions, such as to a murder.  But still, as long as other opinions
exist (in the person who murdered, for example… or her/his friends),
then it is not an absolute.

By the way — thank you for enjoyed what I had to say.  :-)


Thanks :-)  Well, it’s a case of using the same medicine :-)  When I
say, “I can’t believe that it happened by accident” (in regards to the
existence of the universe), it implies (in my mode of thinking) that I
said, “I have chosen to believe that it didn’t happen by accident”.

When someone makes an absolute sounding statement – it helps me to put
the words, “I believe that…” before what they say, in my mind.  Since
that is actually what is happening (in my frame of reference, speaking
for myself, etc.), that’s all that really matters :-)


The doctor may set the broken bone, but do they link together the bone
marrow, the individual fibers (whatever they’re called) that make up the
bones?  Do they command the bone to heal?  Or do they “wait and see”,
doing the best they can with the knowledge they have, and hope for the

If doctors were the ones that cured the illnesses, then doctors would
*always* be successful at curing illnesses.  As they aren’t always
successful, there must be something more going on that they cannot


But what started that process in motion in the first place?  Belief in
“it just happened that way”/chance is as much as a belief system as is
believing in a grand creator of the universe.


That was then.  Times change.  People, organizations, religions mature.


I’m a major fan of physics (especially Quantum physics – some of the
coolest stuff around!).  But the deeper I get into my hobby of studying
this stuff, the greater my respect for whatever started this.  If it
turns out that I’ve had a respect for a random event in an eventless
pre-universe, then I will never be any the wiser once I die, right?

So is my belief harmful?



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