sexual differentiation isn’t always as easy as that.

The idea of multiple sexes (and the sociological phenom of gender) isn’t anything new.

The five sexes came out in 1993 from a developmental geneticist which brought intersex people out into the open.

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From 1993 onwards, once intersex became acceptable to talk about (rather than a relic of a few particular cultures traditions), people who are intersex spoke up and the discussion shifted to gender vs sex.

This led to this “International Bill of Gender Rights, adopted in 1995 at the fourth annual International Conference on Transgender Law and Employment Policy in Houston, Texas. It lists ten “gender rights,” including the right to define one’s own gender, the right to change one’s physical gender if one so chooses and the right to marry whomever one wishes.”

and a lot of other societal changes, including the development geneticist revisiting her 1993 paper in light of the new developments both in the sciences and in society.

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sexual differentiation isn’t always as easy as that.
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

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For someone who claims science, you seem to be stuck on a dogma and on forms drawn up by secretaries in microsoft word and databases designed by IT ppl.

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I have no idea. I never had mine tested. A quality facility would be able to detect chromo abnormalities, but most are designed for bell curve standards for ‘genealogy research’.

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Lots of stuff. For one thing, depends on what kind of DNA test you have done. afaik, they’ve got two major ways – one following the male line and one following the female line.

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Yes, and because the abnormalities are not something the people who have them can do a damn thing about, there’s no need to call them abnormalities when they can just as easily be called intersex or another variation.

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As a citizen, you’re free to be an asshole. But professionals need to be professional. That’s why they attempt to be respectful.

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Indeed. Protein folding has been a subject of fascination for me for years now. [I was lucky enough to be a part of the folding (at)home project years ago… got to watch a screensaver while my computer got used to help in protein folding experiments. Awesome idea it was.

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It depends. There might be underdeveloped ovaries. Might be hermaphrodite or intersex. Might be able to test hormone concentrations in certain organs. I don’t know.

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There’s critics in every field Joseph. Just because they’re critics, doesn’t mean they’re right. Of course it doesn’t mean they’re wrong either. They’re critics.

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Some people live in a nursery school world where everything is super-simple and easy. They’re lucky.

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There’s critics who claim that Richard Dawkins is mostly full of shit and doesn’t know what he’s talking about anymore. [I’m one of them] Take your pick, there’s a critic for that.

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I’ve had jobs where I did page layout and design, long ago. Those forms were made by yahoos like me.

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“I’m guided by pure science” – dude, you made me spit out my coffee there. You’re loony. There’s no such thing.

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You picked a side of the debate and you’re sticking with it. That’s fine. But “pure science”? You know nothing about scientific culture apparently.

it’s ok – it was fun actually. Old Macintosh LC, early 90s at a print shop in NJ. We got occasional visits by Henny Youngman (he was very old at the time). My boss who was old listened to talk radio and enjoyed yelling at the radio when Rush Limbaugh came on ’cause he couldn’t stand the guy. Interesting job.

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John doesn’t exist. He’s a thought experiment. A fiction. I don’t have enough information to decide who you fictional character’s sex is.

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Give me a real case with background and I’ll research. A rhetorical thought experiment bullshit question designed to railroad a binary response is what I just said.

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My ideological mind is based on research and study. I’m a science nut, not a philosophy hack.

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Dude, we _all_ have some genetic abnormalities.

Also, the karotype testing isn’t infallible either. Did you know that we sometimes have differently gendered organs in our body? Some have DNA from mom, some have DNA from dad – some people are twins within themselves to such a degree that different pin pricks can yield different DNA results.

Did you know that your blood isn’t the same everywhere in your body? You can have a disease that doesn’t show up in your blood sample because the blood isn’t the same everywhere.

You want solid absolutes but you’ll only find them in fiction.

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You realize that the sciences progress over time. Terminologies change. Needs change. Get with the program. You seem stuck in some fantasy land where all that matters is concave and convex.

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There’s far more useful causes to for you to get behind, Don Quixote than this one. The science train LONG ago passed the “there are only two genders” station.  You’re fighting a battle that was lost a couple of decades ago and you’re just noticing it.

You should find a more fruitful windmill to strike at.

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Each case is unique. Psychology is also a science. You can’t pick and choose the sciences you want and still say you’re “all for science”. Not how it works unless you’ve got an agenda and rhetoric to promote.

The science of transgender is relatively new. It’s not biological : now we’re into gender and not sex. I proved there are more than two sexes and why they are not called abnormalities in the legal and social sphere and even in the biological departments – they’re called intersex.

The science of gender determines it’s psychological and social. This makes it a moral, legal and human rights issue as well that is supported by the sciences.

When someone wants to be another gender, they go through a period of time of psychological counselling to scientifically determine whether or not it’s appropriate. Then medical science does the surgery. Medical science provides the hormone treatments and both follow up with the patient.

Their lives are generally improved post surgery. I don’t see the issues you see here.

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Classifications are not absolutes dropped down from heaven. They’re human made designations and can and do change with the needs of the times.

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genetic (karyotype) testing, this determines if someone is intersex,

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Sure there is. It’s called psychology or did that stop being a science somewhere along the line?

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You’re not a science-denier, are you Joseph?

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You might be surprised to learn that “who you are” is nature *and* nurture too.

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Some of us have to deal with the hard problems of life. Others get to pick and chose what they “feel like” accepting and say the rest doesn’t count.

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Gender is psychological and sociological in nature, yup

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gender reassignment and social support is a valid treatment for gender dysphoria.

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You might consider anger management therapy ’cause you’re starting to sound irrational.

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You’re bringing in political issues here. Are we shifting to politics now?

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I’m going by the literature. You’re going by an agenda that, for some reason, wants to deny the sciences as they’ve progressed over the last 30+ years.

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Hermaphordite is a much older word of course, tied to greek mythology moreso than sciences, who decided upon intersex long ago.

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Intersex is a common term in the sciences. I checked “Sexual behavior in the human male” from Kinsey, 1948 – to see if “intersex” is used.

it is.

I read that book when I was 14 years old. I’m 44 years old now. I read it 30 years ago. I knew intersex was valid then and have for most of my life.

To me, hermaphrodite was the word used in my older brother’s “freakshow” book, an old book that had a green cover and pictures of “side show freaks”.

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 [I found “sexual behavior in the human male” in my public library when I was 14. I didnt understand all of it, but I was a statistics and facts nerd. I learned all about the sexuality spectrum through Kinsey way back in 1986.I snuck it over to the library cubicles ’cause I didn’t want anyone to see me with it.

I wasn’t happy with the “What’s happening to my body?” bs. I wanted to get deep into it and I did.

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 My mother’s foster brother, probably dead by now, was an HVAC business owner. Married with kids. Knew his whole life he was a woman, even back in the 1950s but hid it, lived life standard, even hypermasculine.

Somewhere in his 50s, he couldn’t do it anymore. He’d been secretly transvestite in little ways long before even gay was acceptable to society (and he was straight – always was) but one day couldn’t do it anymore.

Told his wife. They fought. All adult children – two accepted, one did not.

Spent years out in the open as transvestite, went through years of counselling, ended up getting gender reassignment surgery about 15 years ago, back in 2001 or so.

She went from Abe to Alice. Looked like Queen Elizabeth on a bad day and 6′ 2″ tall.

Haven’t heard from her in a few years – she’s in her late 70s by now.

So, while I haven’t seen it first hand, I’ve had exposure to it as a ‘thing’ for a long time. This is why hearing people complaining about it today so surprising.

I’m from NJ. One of my friends’ great-aunts was Christine Jorgensen, the first gender reassignment. So, the big fuss people make today seems like old-talk to me.

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