Not really. But there’s a LOT of wannabes claiming EVERYBODY ELSE that’s male is emasculated but most men just do what they do and don’t care about gossip like this.

Not really. But there’s a LOT of wannabes claiming EVERYBODY ELSE that’s male is emasculated but most men just do what they do and don’t care about gossip like this.

Suggestion to OP: quit gossiping about “other men” and move forward with life. Forget this “movement”. You want a better future, do it. Talk is cheap.

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Abandon this hill for your own good. Not just here but anywhere. It’s not going to get what you want. You’ll just spend your days and nights gossiping about EVERYBODY else and BEING precisely the problem you claim to hate.

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No problem if you want to get academic. I do that. But it can be a rabbit hole if you get political about it and become just a bunch of talk and people patting each other on the back about how they’re “not like those other guys haha”.

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“Imminenent fall of western civilization (white men only) at 9:33pm. News at 11p”

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I’m a white adult male, liberal as they be – or left – or whatever. I don’t care about that stuff as it’s mostly gossip about other people.

“Western Civilization” is fine. If you have particular Traditions you like — banjo music is a fine tradition. Corn on the cob at picnics is great. Fall in love, get married, raise kids, have a job – fine.

Not sure WHAT the OP’s searching for beyond complaining about other people’s behavior, which *is not* exactly *supposed to be* masculine (although those divisions are weird language artifacts, but whatever).

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If these responses are the SLIGHTEST indication of “men in Western Civilization”, Western Civ is fine. Leave this hill and find something practical to be in a movement for. This one is 100% unnecessary and ridiculous.

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You might have a different perspective that might be worth hearing. But a guy stands up and says “All you guys are the downfall of Western Civ because you’re weak” or whatever bad paraphrase that was I just did, he’s gonna get roasted and rightly so.

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You’re gossiping about men in Western civilization being weak. If you have DATA or evidence, then it’s not gossip. But if it’s just spouting an opinion without backing it up, it’s gossip.

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Which ways? Give the men you’re talking shit about something to work with.

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Ok. That’s something to work with. So, you measure masculinity by being a man who is married to a woman who has children after gong to college and does not divorce and/or abandon their kids. Something like that to start?

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Ah. I’m GenX, grew up in the 80s. They said that about my generation too.

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Employment stats lie too. Usually home-run occupations and/or micro-businesses aren’t included, greatly skewing stats. The days of “working for corp” are dying and have been.

I like the IRS’s (I think?) measure of “small business” as around 50-500 employees, and it’s a good start. Most small businesses aren’t small, but “micro”. Under 50 workers, it’s not worth having employees. Better to 1099. The system isn’t set up for businesses that tiny.

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1099s are greatly under filed and the IRS usually doesn’t bother chasing as it’s small potatoes. Labor force is under reported.

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That’s only if you’re even counted. A lot of libertarian minded (in how they handle taxes, not necessarily their political stance) people run their businesses and don’t pay, or their subcontractors don’t pay. I know and I know it’s common. Florida is full of this kind of thing and is generally fine with it.

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Get fictitious name. Open bank account. Deal with county (and state if you must), slide under IRS radar. Labor pool is a poor way to gauge “real men” as there’s more ‘gap’ than substance, unless you want to add “pays your taxes faithfully” to the Real Man rules, which you can of course.

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It’s more than under the table though. I run a micro biz, family and a few non-family, 15 yrs now. I work with a LOT of .other similarly structured businesses. I did the “employee” thing for a few years ’til I realized it’s not worth it under 50 employees. Paying benefits is a necessarily reality for 50+ because you’re basically a small community and businesses 49 or less can’t support that.

So I got rid of my ego (“I’m like Exxon ’cause I run a business too and boy these benefits suck”) switched to subcontracting. Some years I fill out forms, some years I don’t. I know other micro businesses do the same as we’ve talked about it. IRS doesn’t care as to them it’s a glorified hobby and not worth the chase.

It’s vastly easier to start a business now than it was 50 yrs ago.

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tbh I think your hill is better served if it were something like “American can-do attitude / hard working / responsible” etc as those are considered “traditional American values” moreso than “decline of man” stuff.

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Do that and you get “change your own oil” and Rosie the Riveter all in one, both encompassing the kind of thing you’re talking about.

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