I’m not buying your assertion that “media circus” is a valid axis. My ontology has “school shooting”: Causes form of psychological trauma among survivors. PTSD is common result. So it is logical to allow PTSD statistics. You can measure severity. There’s a scale for that I posted yesterday, but I don’t know if school shooting gets or event warrants its own special category. Media circus wouldn’t show up at all on such a scale.

I’m not buying your assertion that “media circus” is a valid axis.
 
My ontology has “school shooting”:
 
Causes form of psychological trauma among survivors.
PTSD is common result.
 
So it is logical to allow PTSD statistics.
 
You can measure severity. There’s a scale for that I posted yesterday, but I don’t know if school shooting gets or event warrants its own special category. Media circus wouldn’t show up at all on such a scale.
=====
 Funny thing is: Vets HAD that training and STILL many got PTSD.Now, put into the same situation but unexpected and you’re untrained?
====
 To compress, survivors of tragedy ask, “Why did [x] die instead of me?” It haunts them.
====
You overestimate what training can do. Doctors also get training for that. In both cases sometimes it ‘sticks’, often it leads to alcoholism and drug abuse to cope.
=====
 How does an average human become capable of cutting open another human and holding their life in their hands?Lots of training in believing you’re a god among men.That’s an actual part of doctor training. It’s different from how grunt soldiers (not officers) are trained but it’s to achieve a similar result:Be capable of doing inhumane things to other humans.
=======
 It’s still training. How to think in a given situation. How do react. It’s learning.
=====
 Training is practice. War games is equivalent to future doctors walking with doctors and giving their opinions and tested on it. It’s a safe way to practice before given authority.
=====
 Learning doesn’t need books or school. Baby learns to walk through trial and error along with coaching.
=====
Hold on. Ok, so are you distinguishing, “Learning _about_” from “Learning by doing”?
======
You haven’t done so.
 
When I compare doctor’s training to “be like a god among men” to a soldier’s training to “think like a soldier”, they both involve putting aside guilt, which is a natural and normal emotion, in order to achieve a goal.
 
I am saying they are equivalent
======
  If a doctor loses a patient, why don’t they take a 3 month break from work to recouperate?
=====
 PTSD / Shell shock can result from a SINGLE fallen bomb, or a SINGLE skirmish.
—–
 It might be. But it’s usually overstimulation + all the fear and excitment brain chemicals in a 100% UNSAFE environment, away from camp, mommy and daddy and video games and NOW I MIGHT DIE.
======
 Thought experiment: 18 yr old kids. One goes to college, another stays home with Xbox, another goes to work, and another goes to bootcamp and is shipped out after 9 months to a war zone.
======
  Your ability to notice a distinction and why any of those 4 kids could equally suffer PTSD from a similar traumatic event.
=====
 Public school is from age 5-18. Approx 12 years of training to do things a certain way.Now you’re out of that and doing something else at 18.Is 6 months of bootcamp and 3 months of travel enough to prepare someone to eliminate survivor’s guilt that can lead to PTSD and suicide?
=====
 That would be a fantastic study but it’s a unicorn. It does not exist and is likely to NEVER exist.Find me “characteristics of media coverage” as a medical factor. That would be your first unicorn.
======
 This is about survivor’s guilt, PTSD and suicide. Medical.
=====
  If there is a longetudal study, it would be done by the CDC or a medical association.
=====
 What you’re requiring is a p-zombie.
I’m calling it a unicorn.
=======
 PTSD is not a unicorn nor need it be treated as a unicorn.It is common, well studied, comparable
======
 You may have used uninformed intuition but I have used standard evidence determination.I’ll start again.
a) Are these suicides PTSD?
=====
 Not specific to this particular unicorn.. I mean ‘case’?You want a case study?
=====
 That’s not designed to. That particular one is a preliminary study used to ascertain whether further research is warranted.Conclusion: It is.It’s not a start-to-finish study. It is part of a longer process.
=====
 From that study, came 24 references. That study was used as evidence to build other studies upon.
======
 “likely biased” is your fact free opinion.I provided a number of links for you to look at if you don’t like that one.
=====
 You’re assuming that all studies I provided are invalid by not looking at any others.
=====
 My goal was to show: Yes, there is a link between school shootings and PTSD that is established in the literature for at least the last 29 years.
=====
 You want a baseline. You said it’s likely none did so. I show one. Your guesses keep jumping around.
=====
 What I need is a conversation partner who understands basic scientific methods and reasoning. As it is, I have a goalpost mover.
=====
 I’m here by choice, held by my own incredulity and fascination at your dancing skills.
=====
 “Which school in any of those analyses was randomly assigned to be shot?
===============
 That is not a valid experiment.Do you know why that is not a valid experiment?
=======
 It’s “a” valid experimental design procedure. It is invalid in this case.Do you know why?
=======
 Do you know why they use baseline studies instead of shooting random kids in schools?
=====
  It’s invalid if they don’t shoot random kids in schools to test against unexpected school shootings for PTSD?
======
Selected by whom?
=====
 Research has been done involving every school shooting. I’m sure it’s not hard to find.That is the set they have to work with.I don’t know what you’re saying.
=====
 I gave you the first 5 or so results from scholar with PTSD and school shooting.There were more. I glanced at abstracts and pasted.
======
  I did not give you everything I found. I wanted to show:a) school shooting and PTSD links are discussed starting from the 1988 school shootings that resulted in the weapon banI found that.b) I wanted to show that studies were done from a variety of school shootings over that period of time.I did that.That is all I set out to do with those links.
=======
 PTSD is the result of a trauma.Do you want links showing “public school leads to PTSD?”There’s also a lot of that.
======
I don’t know what causations you are supplying as an alternnative.Media was one.
=======
 You want a unicorn study proving this as a special unicorn case.You want suicides from a week ago in a study.I can’t provide that, so I lose.Brilliant.
======
 You want random selection of “causes of PTSD that are anything but school shooting” right?
======
 post … TRAUMA tic STRESS disorder.Trauma and Stress are known and measured.If you want to measure stress levels that are event related, this is the common scale to use.
=====
 There are other scales you can use. Stress was a BIG topic of study in the 1980s and a lot of research came out of that.
=====
  Military has been studying stress specific to the humans in their care since WW1.
======
  Intersectional causation is fine and very post modern of you so I don’t mind it.Still, I’m starting to see why cut and dry folks find people like me occasionally irritating.
=====
  You’re being “me”, looking under rocks when the damn tree is right in front of you.
=====
 a) Kids who don’t know war levels of fear and death experience war levels of fear and death.b) a year later a few survivors commit suicide from survivor’s guilt.It’s an Occam’s razor answer.Might it get more complicated? Sure, if you want.
=======
You continue to assert that.
but boom boom in a room is boom boom in a room.
=====
 How many soldiers did? Only the bombers, which is probably a few dozen out of millions of soldiers.
======
 Surrounded by people you trained with = surrounded by classmates.Watching them die = watching them die.”Why didn’t I die instead?” = “Why didn’t I die instead?”
=======
  Maybe it’s anything but that. But that’s the tree I’m looking at in the forest, and it’s big.
=====
 No. Soldiers are kids.
Look at suicide rates in that first chart way up.18-24. HUGE compared to general population.
=====
 Military training is induced trauma done to kids. Or young adults. Whatever you like. Yet that’s still not enough to prevent event linked PTSD in all cases.
=====
  Brutal. That’s trauma. Maybe it’s induced trauma as part of a written strategy that’s glorified in song and the public imaginaton.But psychologically? Trauma is trauma.
========
 That’s nice. I had a Boy Scout Master who set us up with similar tasks at age 12. I knew kids in catholic schools made to do painful things to toughen up their souls or whatever.Still all forms of trauma. Glorify it if you like.
======
 Sounds like complaining to me though. “I got made to do this and I got through it”. Ok. So what?
=====
 Still talking about it. Badge of pride. Left some kind of mark. Wasn’t forgotten.
=====
Power of Positive Thinking at work.
=======
 You find patterns. Establish causation as best you can. How do you do that?Hm.”I was happy until the bomb blew up my friend and I can’t get the image of his intestines on my lap out of my mind”.Ok. Maybe “death of a peer” is a cause.
======
You can do that with rats.
You can’t do that with people.
Want induced rat PTSD? There’s a ton of that.
======
 Unicorns. You set up an impossible thing to find.
=====
  and yet, can’t be done to your liking.Rats are ok for everybody else’s control study.
Baseline is ok for everybody else’s study.But you want a unicorn.
=======
 No. If it were standard, SOMEBODY would have done your kind of study in the past 100 years of studying PTSD / shell shock.
=====
 Exactly. You want a unicorn study. It is impossible to do on this planet and be acceptable science.
======
 Not really. You just picked the wrong kind of analysis.
======
Science is pragmatic.
—–
  An impossible method of analysis for this topic.
=====
 You reject every PTSD study I show you. It is likely you will reject every PTSD study I show you.Why?Apparently, you doubt PTSD is valid. Or, if you accept it as valid, you deny the possiblity that any study has ever shown causation properly.So, you set up a box. In this box is the study that will prove it to you.Can’t use rats.
Can’t use any other statistical methods used by any other study ever done on PTSD at any time.So, what’s in the box?
======
  Data is nothing without interpretation. You need theory. Do you reject PTSD?
=====
  the causation is from where the descriptions FOR the statistics came from.I did not make those categories up.
====
Incorrect. I am rational and reasonable.I’ll ask you:Where did the categories of causes for PTSD come from?
======
 “causation from descriptive statistics”Where did the descriptions FOR those statistics come from?What kinds of studies did they do? You should know this.
======
What was observed? How was it gathered?
=====
 Interviews, polling, psychological analysis, study, symptom checking, eliminating other causes — all standard medical science.It’s qualitative but it is methodical and not arbitrary.
====
 In PTSD? It’s a set of evidence, from subjective to objective.
=====
 Cause is circumscribed and identified. It’s qualitative NOT quantitative.
====
 Labels are qualities.
=====
 Sets without qualities carries no meaning on its own.
=====
“Determinate” is a quality.
=====
” sufficient condition.” is a quality.
=====
 “hard logical structure,” is a quality as opposed to several things that do not have that quality.
======
 arrangement of values.
arrangement of flowers.
Quality.
=====
 Matrices are qualities which are described with arranged quantities.
=====
 So it’s a quantifiable relative arrangement of values.What do I do with that?
Has no meaning until you attach a quality of importance to it.
=====
 Numeric is a quality assigned to symbols and have certain qualities which make them “numbers” and not PTSD.
=====
 “Numeric is anything of, relating to, or containing numbers.”Numeric is anything with the Quality of “number”

=====
 Quantum is Quanta is Count (Quanto), answering a “How” questiion such as “How many? or “How much?”

I can go back to pebble counting with this.

=====

Leave a comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *


4 + four =

Leave a Reply