“Are these my Americans too?”

The issue at the moment though Russell James — and there are a number of issues but this is a very big one, is that people who once kept their identities hidden in the shadows are coming out and feeling free to expose themselves. They feel they have a safe space now : the whole country as a safe space.

They’re not the majority by any means and yes, a few should not spoil the flag. But… that’s where it gets even more complicated….

…but these guys are definitely part of the reason as the most salient example of a question : “Are these my Americans too?”

Hence: Discussion.

https://www.facebook.com/TheAtlantic/videos/10154823525748487/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

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I can’t say I’m too surprised Kat Marchán. Identity politics was once only the realm of the left but the right has learned its ways and how to use and speak it better and better over the past 15 years.

Yet, there were SOME sign of it, even when I was there.

This article, which is one thing that sold me on Hamp, could have been written today but it was 26 years ago.

If you read through, you can see the seeds of dissent even in these earlier stages.

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The excerpt I have in mind:

”Sometimes it’s hard to be a heterosexual male here,” said Halstead York, who was having breakfast in the dining hall with his friends Jeri Chittick, Rebecca Drury and Elizabeth Rosenthal.

”Students are trying so hard to be open-minded they’re close-minded,” said Jeri. ”

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I’m still proud to be a Hampster but not of everybody who ever attended.

I’m proud the administration took a responsible step of taking down the flag so discussion can take place.

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You may be impressed by the show and glitz but some of us know the deeper realities of what it means to be an American  Fundamentals that do not change.

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The “fantasy island” is the alt right who:

a) believe they won Trump the election (instead of it being a natural course of events – Dem / Rep / Dem / Rep). I’m surprised the GOP didn’t have a sweeping landslide but instead they had a pathetic win.

b) They believe they are going to “drain the swamp”.

c) They believe their ‘glorious leader’ will overthrown established systems and processes with a magic wand.

Did you know that ultimately checks and balances actually works? It goes beyond the three at the top.

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My America has room for the both of us. Does yours?

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Communism isn’t coming and cannot come to the USA. Neither is Fascism coming to the USA under Trump.

If there is a rewrite of the Constitution? Yes.

Unless that happens, neither communism nor fascism will reign.

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I don’t see the connection between those two things as you see. I also do not know who you are quoting. But you must distinguish between rhetoric and realities.

Oh Hampshire College is as uber liberal as it gets. But it’s far from communist lol.

Even when I sent back in 1990, hiding in an article that helped sell me on it, were the seeds of dissent. This article could have been written today, 26 years later about other colleges. I’ll quote the relevant passages.

[I also heard from an alum who has no love for Hampshire College, that back in the early 00s, Hampshire College was becoming a haven for white supremicists under the guise of identity politics. That didn’t surprise me]

http://www.nytimes.com/…/what-s-new-at-frisbee-u.html…

”Sometimes it’s hard to be a heterosexual male here,” said Halstead York, who was having breakfast in the dining hall with his friends Jeri Chittick, Rebecca Drury and Elizabeth Rosenthal.

”Students are trying so hard to be open-minded they’re close-minded,” said Jeri.

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Rhetoric vs reality. The administration is always at odds with the students. This is one of the rare times that they made a smart move.

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Ah yes, Ted. He was a foreboding of things to come. A lot of people started to get obsessed with him and saw him as their American hero. It was only a matter of time before we saw what we see here today.

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A more reasonable patriotic role model for general conservative right American values is Mike Rowe.

Ted should be nobody’s role model.

http://mikerowe.com/

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But these ideological games are common. Just look at the success of Carto, a man writing years removed from the Nurenberg trials (which WERE current at the time and a more reliable source), who started a movement that has a lot of people working hard to provide what seem like rational arguments for holocaust denial.

[their best technique is a common one: it’s not in the details they provide, but in the ones they leave out that makes their arguments seem logically internally consistent. The easiest to fool people are the rational ones by these methods]

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But here’s the facts:
a) a University is not a government
b) Even if a University was the perfect Communist subculture (I doubt a single one is) that only applies internally
c) The US is not Communist and cannot be without a rewrite of the Constitution.

Replace Communist with Fascist (because there are ALSO Universities which are closer to Fascist) and the same applies.

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But here’s the facts:
a) a University is not a recognized sovereign nation.
b) Even if a University was the perfect Communist subculture (I doubt a single one is) that only applies internally
c) The US is not Communist and cannot be without a rewrite of the Constitution.

Replace Communist with Fascist (because there are ALSO Universities which are closer to Fascist) and the same applies.

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I’m pointing out the intrinsically limiting impact of its effects upon the governance of the USA.

If you are concerned about the ideology and unfair treatment of dissenters within University bounds — even though I find this Ted K like in nature (I don’t like these ‘list’ things… strike me as a hit list), this will be up your alley.

http://professorwatchlist.org/index.php/about-us

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Variations of communist-style ideology has had a strong foundation in basic American values though,

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

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My own ideology does not follow the Marxist / communist line. It shouldn’t be surprising that there are some intersections but mine are more due to being raised Methodist with a strong work ethic and what I consider a basic Christian egalitarian ethic. I’m not against possession. Rich people are rich. Powerful people are powerful. Good for them.

The rich stay rich and the powerful stay powerful. I don’t expect that to change. But among the people, would I rather encourage a step-on-each-others-faces to get the newest toy before Christmas at Walmart, or would I rather encourage a rational nation that sees fellow Americans as fellow Americans rather than “those left” or “those right”?

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Identity politics is one of the things that won Trump the election. The right has learned identity politics after years of being educated by the left and it was effective.

Who are your Americans Steven? These are my Americans. #BlackLivesMatter are my Americans. Both the ppl that got hosed at North Dakota, the police that shot the water cannons and even the oil companies are also my Americans.

Are there people whose values I do not share? Absolutely. I can accept someone as American whether they have communist values or fascist. I just don’t want to see the balance between left and right fucked up too badly but I expect it to shift of course.

I can answer: “Are these my Americans?” Yes they are. They also embarrass me but they are my Americans as well.

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is identity politics. Your big statements about “Better dead than communist” is identity politics. You may be defining yourself in the negative (at least my identity isn’t THEIRS) but it’s no different.

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Not at all. You play identity politics. That is not a tangent.

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I stand corrected. This is what I get for spending too much time with the alt right for a year+. No, you have not.

The alt right plays identity politics but I cannot think of an example of you playing identity politics.

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I saw a few moments : I remember the poster he mentioned.

Tangent but related: Post-truth is the word of the year.

The game playing by the alt right has indeed tainted my view of the right in general. [it wasn’t spectacular to begin with as I’ve been mostly exposed to the Rush Limbaugh or family values before that pseudo conservative movements my whole life]

One tactic that’s been effective has been the alt right putting a fake leftist ‘tweet’ (or tumblr or reddit or wherever).

It’s designed for two purposes:
a) to fool the gullible left [oh no nazi] and
b) for the right to go “oh those stupid leftists putting fake nazi stuff”

Disinformation campaign. Very annoying.

It seems that the direction you’ve been striving for has been a return to traditional Conservatism, which has nearly been dead since the late 1980s. The traditional liberal left died in the early 1960s, so it’s not surprising the right followed suit.

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Did I ever share this with you?

Very eye opening. I’ve seen similar critiques of the left many times but this, written in 2004 by a traditional conservative was given to me by a traditional liberal friend of mine. [I think this man was his college professor].

It’s been rare to see a critique of the right by the right – far more common to see a critique of the left by the left – so this was a treat as it confirmed a lot of my suspicions. You can also see the seeds of the alt right within it.

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I embrace the flawed left because it’s the closest thing I have at present for the American and humanitarian values that matter to me.

I use their explanations and terminology because it’s the only way at present they’re going to move forward.

What I expect to see: In 2008, Obama was elected and the Republicans vowed to stop him by flipping Congress in 2010, correlating with the formation of the Tea Party.

By 2010, they succeeded.

I expect to see the same phenomenon happening with Congress this time. The left is mobilizing in public and private ways (you can erase the name Clinton from your vocabulary – she’s entirely irrelevant from the moment she lost) — and by 2018 they will have flipped the Congress at which time you will see a similar situation we’ve been through already, just with flipped parties.

There’s few things I’d bet money on but I’d bet it on this.

What surprised me (even though I got caught up in the mess towards the end) is that the GOP didn’t win by a landslide.

It’s flipping time. Of course the GOP was going to win.

But they should have won by more. I’m more concerned that the GOP is finding itself in a weak unpopular place right now and its effects than I am it being overly strong. Foreign nations are watching and preparing.

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I think you’ll really appreciate it. It’s a long read but it’s from a conservatism that I highly respect and honor. At one time, conservatives were the intellectuals but they’ve lost that along the way as they adopted the ways of the left for themselves.

I put mine on top of one of the humorous memes floating around.

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as an fyi – I can’t stand Chomsky, mostly because I see him a somewhat paranoid (although highly intelligent, but they’re the worst), but mostly because I disagree with his linguistics ideas… which took over the field of Linguistics for 40 years and REALLY needs to stop…

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I’m an entirely useless political creature. I’m more left and further down than the Dalai Lama. I could never lead from an authoritarian position.

I see strength as an internal quality driven by character and resolve and not by external factors. “Shows of power” are empty to me.

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Prior to this test, I took it also back in early 2015, before the whole election nonsense began.

At that time, I was a *little* closer politically to you but only a dot or two up and to the right from what you see here.

Since then I’d shifted a little and I’m more comfortable in this space politically.

A little posturing is fine. I use it on occasion. You should see what i do when a momma bear starts getting on my property: I stand up tall and yell “git git!” and charge towards her until she leaves. Same with the cubs or the lone adult male bears.

With people, I consider posturing as “use of privilege”. For example, I have “nerd cred”. Nerd privilege. nerd posturing. Call it what you will.

I have the glasses. I tend towards less ‘kempt’ in appearance.

This gives me a social stance of appearing “smart”.

Have I used that to advantage? You betcha. It works.

I’ve used other privileges for posturing as needed. But in all cases I’m aware of what’s under my feet holding me up – and what’s NOT holding me up as I make my stance.

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I’m independent. But I did some quick research. From what I can see, I don’t have a problem with him. He embodies a lot of what makes the left “not the current right”.

Yet, it shares something with the current right: he’s extreme in the way Breitbart is extreme for the right. It is a good political standoff position.

Centralism won’t work at present. Centralism is what is inbetween but to match an extreme it’s reasonable that the DNC would do much the same.

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My mother was married to an Egyptian muslim in the 80s for a few years. Ahmad. I was between 11-14 years old. Almost took his name if they’d stayed married.

He was an American. I’ve also been friends with Nation of Islam blacks in NJ, one a kid named just “Bubba”. Never knew his real name.

There’s been a movement within black circles in the BLM to attempt a compromise in the situation in black neighborhoods and that’s been to allow self-policing measures for at least a period of time.

Would I trust black neighborhoods to self police? Yes. They don’t want crappy neighborhoods. Undoubtedly it would be set up where the leaders would meet with law enforcement for progress reports and such as well as local politicians and such for their experimental changes.

Also, humanitarian groups would undoubtedly also be involved to be sure that there’s no abuses of power against those in the neighborhoods.

They’re Americans first. Nation of Islam is an American group. I’m fine with them.

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[what I wrote was all over the place. Tried to say too much in too small of a space but as these concerns that people may have over Keith Ellison are all intertwined, I gave an intertwined response]

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“Are These My Americans, too?”

If I had to come up with a bumper sticker phrase, that would be it. Maybe someone will pick it up and use it. It summarizes my attitude completely.

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Well, the answer I have for the question is, actually “Yes”.

This doesn’t mean I agree with the statements or opinions of every person that is an American but I embrace their status as an American with whatever rights the country bestows upon its citizens.

I have a humanitarian value system which I also apply to my feelings about the people in my country.

There are some people that I am EMBARRASSED about and wish would stop doing or saying what they are doing and saying. They make *me* look bad on the world stage because their words and behaviors are unbecoming and potentially criminal.

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I believe that to be true as well. One can be proud of their country’s achievements and disappointed at their country’s mistakes and angry at their country’s evils while also considering the citizens of their own country, no matter how distasteful, fellow citizens.

Ultimately, I do not care for nationalist attitudes. But I’m realistic: They’re not going away. So, the next best thing I can do is take my globalism and make it my national attitude as well.

It’s not easy but it’s something I must do in order to attempt to stand up for the rights of the citizens of my own country from those within my own country that might wish to see them harmed or ostracized.

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