Advocating putting you opponent in jail on a national debate

Let’s see: She’s has political connections in every department. This means she understands politics. She knows how to accomplish things. This, to me, is a good, strong leader.

Advocating putting you opponent in jail on a national debate when you want to be the leader of the strongest country on the planet and accusing every branch of government of being on a campaign against him personally…

…and having supporters that want to have a public lynching of the leaders of the current government…. reminds me of one of my favorite “white people be crazy” memes….

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That’s called politics. It’s always dirty. That’s how it works.

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Are the 192 other countries in the world going to suddenly stop playing politics now?

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She went through the process. The investigations. She was cleared by the only systems we have for such things.

How else are you going to prosecute her?

Public opinion?

Infowars?

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FBI investigated. Called her extremely careless to do so. The issue is closed. Unless the FBI was in cahoots and all of the investigators lied along with her. That makes the FBI implicit as well.

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Do I want a politician who is disconnected from all of the people he’s supposed to be working with on a daily basis, or a politician who is connected with all of the people she is supposed to be working with on a daily basis?

Who gets more done?

Who is a Lame Duck for 4 years?

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A Lame Duck Trump will mean Pence will use his pull in the places he has it. If impeachment proceedings begin against Trump and we end up with President Pence, the evangelicals finally get the Executive office.

I’m less concerned with Trump tbh and more with Pence. Of all the running mates he could pick, I’d rather have had Christie and that says a lot.

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That’s easy.
She’s connected.
She’s unlikable but driven.
Her public values are ones I agree with.
Don’t like:
War politics. But…
.. her war politics are every president’s war politics as long as I can remember. She’s handed the same bag of shit that was handed Obama, handed to Bush, handed to Clinton, handed to Bush, handed to Reagan, handed to Clinton, handed to Ford all by Nixon upon the forming of the PetroDollar + our necessary linkage to OPEC (Saudi) in order to have a stable US economy.If the PetroDollar becomes the PetroYen or the PetroRuble, then our economy goes up and down like everybody else’s and then China or Russia gets to have the stable economy based upon oil surplus exchange.THIS is why we need to reduce our dependence on oil and coal – so we can eventually be able to loosen our tied to Saudi Arabia.But if want to do a shortcut, then we have to dessecrate our land for coal, shale, oil drilling off beaches and have to start participating in oil surplus for Rubles or for Yen because we’ll no longer be the world power.We’ll probably drop to #4 within a year or two. Won’t take long.
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 If we drop to #4, we’ll have to open our borders up. Right now, we have extremely closed borders as a country. We’ve only accepted a few thousand refugees for example. Obama’s and Clinton’s big promises to accept refugees are safe because they KNOW they’ll be vetoed by Congress.Politics anyone?But if we become dependent upon everybody else’s economies like they are to each other (think Greece),
..well, you know what?Maybe we’ve been in charge long enough.Time to let someone else be in control. If Trump had his way, the World Bank will cut off the Petrodollar, and THEN we’d better start pumping a shit ton of oil for everybody else to use.We’ll still have to worry about Saudi. They’ll just be selling it to China or Russia instead.They’ll be able to build up the 21st century economies while we ravage our own land for oil and coal ’til we run dry.Maybe it’s time. Time to give up on America.
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 Honestly, I want to see world peace. But we don’t know how to do it yet.A Russian/China/US alliance for oil won’t last for very long. Old hostilities will rise again predictably, unless we band together to bomb the Middle East and hundreds of millions of people into glass.and then what after that human atrocities of untold proportions?OR – how about a nice Cold War politics? Russia and the USA know how to play that. That’s why we’ve been heading in that direction.A cold war economy is good for the USA and good for Russia.Keeps people occupied. Both Russia and the USA tried to make terrorists into the new “enemy” but it flopped. They make shitty enemies.But Russia makes a GREAT enemy for the USA, and the USA makes a GREAT enemy for Russia.We each know the game already. Meanwhile, the side-games can be played in little proxy wars and each side can ignore their own human atrocities in the name of ‘don’t want the other guy to drop the bomb’…
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  If Trump wasn’t such a lying used car salesman, I might be able to believe him. But he’s not even good at lying. His promises are IMPOSSIBLE for him to keep. He knows that.
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 He can’t fire all the generals.
He can’t put Clinton in jail after she’s been acquitted in court.
He can’t built a 50 foot wall and have Mexico pay for it.
He can’t keep running his family businesses through his kids.
But he *can* work the Trump brand after he loses, his followers can say “it was a rigged election!” (rather than more saavy politics), youtube right wing personalities will love it because they’ll have a non-stop amount of complaints to launch everytime she farts…and the systems in place at present will continue.Here’s the thing Even with Trump/Pence, those systems in place will STILL continue. The difference is we’ll be leaderless. Do you want Congress with the majority of the power? I don’t.
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  One correction: Where I said “he knows that”, maybe he doesn’t. If he doesn’t, and *I’m* smarter than Trump in that regard… that’s sad.
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well, for some reason US manages to keep its ruling elite smarter than its average citizens, it’s unusual for a democracy and I wonder how they manage ” – my friend who is a theoretical physicist from Romania
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 A lot of Americans admire Putin. The thing I try to point out is: He has some of the BEST public relations on the planet. We don’t _know_ what’s happening internally (at least in the USA) but Putin gives off a strong image.In the US, strong image = strong leader. They’re wrong (we’re wrong ’cause I’m here too and have to fight my own US instincts), because image =/= substance.
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 Public relations Christopher. Look at the Russian humanitarian videos coming out from Aleppo. It’s beautiful public relations. How much humanitarian aid are they REALLY providing? Hard to say: we only know what the videos say.Both Russia, Syria and the USA are bombing the crap out of Aleppo. Who is bombing whom?Did the US bomb a UN convoy or did Russia or did Syria? Can’t find an unbiased news source to say for sure and I’m usually good at finding an unbiased report on things.So, “Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear.” still holds true today.
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 I’m not usually big on politics, but I know that it’s a game of saavy and intrigue. I don’t believe in global conspiracies (’cause people are too inept for that just in general, and especially in groups), but I know people play politics everywhere you go. “You scratch my back, I promise to scratch yours back when the time comes”. Happens everywhere.
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 An honest politician wouldn’t last a month on the world stage.
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 Nothing new. Thing is, they work across borders, across treaties, to get things done.If you want honesty in your leaders, join an intentional community. Anywhere else, it’s the same old game.
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Gingrich has been a joke since the 1980s.Honestly though? I disagree with you. Things were worse in 2000-2008. Everything came to a head in 2008, banking was near disaster (still is, they’re just covering it well) and Obama was handed BIG pile of shit from Bush.That pile of shit he was handed, he handled very well.Does this mean I agree with every decision made under his watch? No.But, a lot of those decisions weren’t ones he personally would have made, but as leader he *has* to make. He’s not just “voice of the people to the world”. He’s voice of the government to the world and to his own people.It’s a shitty position to be in. I wouldn’t want to be President.He handled it with class and style. He gets to take all of the blame for everything that goes wrong and also take all of the credit when things go right.History will judge Obama very well. The Republican Party though, is about done with.
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I see our war polities and internal law enforcement as the two worst parts of the USA.This didn’t start with Obama. It just continued under Obama.
This didn’t start with Bush Jr. It just continued under Bush Jr.
This didn’t start with Clinton. It just continued under Clinton.
This didn’t start with Bush. It just continued under Bush.
This didn’t start with Reagan. It just continued under Reagan.When someone doesn’t like the President-in-power they get all of the blame for whatever their country is doing, at home and overseas. And, they should. That’s part of their job: Figurehead for everything that happens.
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 The sad thing that people who want Trump/Pence in is this:They BELIEVE that he’ll have the power to do all of his promises.But he doesn’t. He won’t be able to do any of that stuff.Things will carry on whoever sits in the big chair.He has no useful political connections. This makes him a “lame duck” president. He’ll be able to blame everybody else for his ineffectiveness and they’ll believe it.and yeah – our system is setup so that SEEMS very difficult for a third party to break in.But it’s not hard at all. All a 3rd party has to do is PREVENT either Left or Right from getting 270 electoral college votes.Then the tie breaker goes to Congress. If the Congress has Green elements in it (and THAT’S very possible to do), then a Green President *is* eventually possible. But it’d take a lot of coordination and, well, the Green Party in the USA is a mess.
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  I think the hope is for a Russia/USA cold war economy at this point. It worked for the USA, and worked well for Russia for a time at least.Maybe a cold war with Putin at the helm with his saavy image will improve both economies. Who knows? Terrorists made for terrible enemies anyway. At least Russia knows the US and the US knows Russia. they’ll have to dust off a few strategy books, but I think they’re ready for this chess game again.
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 Have I? Not yet, although Clinton’s looking better. Two things I don’t like are things that wouldn’t improve under Trump either: internal law enforcement and our pro-war policies.But for internal human rights, I’d go with Clinton.
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 I just came across this video and thought, “yeah, kinda gross there Donald”
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 Yup. Plus, once the “politics makes strange bedfellows” is over, old hostilities will return.At least the US and Russia both have playbooks for cold war politics. They’ll each have to dust off a few old books and old computer programs, but it’s more of a known situation.I think terrorists made shitty enemies both for Russia and the USA. At least this chess game has been played before.
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 yeah -and in that regard, Pence has my concern more than Trump, especially if Congress decides to start impeachment proceedings against Trump and wins. Hence – President Pence and all that’ll do.
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 Even as male bravado talk, it crossed a line into “this dude’s got a problem”.People who like him will easily forgive him but it’s not just kinda gross: this dude is supposed to be President of the USA, my representative to the rest of the planet. A symbolic “Kenneth Udut” up there, representative of who we are and what we stand for.World’s watching these videos too. Their own news programs reporting on these things in their own ways with no ties back to the election.But here’s one that came up from the USA from about six month ago in my related list. I was like, “blurgh”.https://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow/videos/10154060395486800/
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 This was from way back in April, prior to Spring and Summer, and now we’re in the Fall of the campaign. It just happened to show up on my ‘related videos’ list. I haven’t heard a big deal made about this.Here’s how I see it Steven: All of the issues are important, including the character of the person who is going to be the figurehead of the USA.Now, to compare: Putin has a fantastic image. His PR campaign is one of the best on the planet, and, as a theoretical physicist friend from Romania said today, Russia’s destitute on the inside and focuses too much of its resources to convince the world that they’re still a world power when they’re not. [not that being a theoretical physicist from Romania makes him an expert in politics – but I like seeing different perspectives].So, who will I sent out onto the world stage?Who has political saavy?We’re already mostly a closed bubble compared to other countries. We barely take any refugees in. Big promises from Obama and Clinton for refugees is just our “”public face” to the world: They each know fully well that Congress will deny such numbers of refugees, just as they knew they’d deny amnesty to Mexican illegals.It’s politics. How it goes.The rest of the world is politically saavy. If we’re not, well, we get what we deserve.
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 Character is what kind of person you are – who you are when nobody’s watching as it were.I’m all for scrutinizing the Wikileaks emails, although already doctored copies of certain things are already getting viralized, so it has to be done with care…But it all feeds into the title of a book ghostwritten by Dave Shiflett with Trump’s face on it, and it holds true in either case.
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 Oh, it’s relevant ’cause Trump used a doctored one (he didn’t know it was doctored) as a talking point recently during one of his speeches. A guy who actually wrote a few sentences that showed up in it, that Trump quoted, was attributed to another guy in the doctored email, which pointed a dirty finger at Clinton for something with Benghazi or whatever.I could look through it myself if I was looking for dirt, but I’m not. Others will gladly pour through it to find things – thousands of people are likely going through them now to find interesting news snippets to share tomorrow.. and the next day.. .and the next day.I just have to wait. I’m fine with the public campaign at the moment. I expect lots of dirty stuff happening in the background – that’s saavy politics. It’s always dirty and filthy and why I hate politics generally.
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Public and private person, yeah. Thing about character: Character is who you are when nobody’s around.Does the character of the person representing me as the Face of America to the rest of the world, matter?Yeah. I have to answer for him. “Why’d you people put Trump in?” and I have to answer. I have to do the same with Clinton if someone asks.I could answer for both, but I’d have to point to my fellow Americans in the case of Trump and I don’t want to do that. I like having a proud face put forward internationally.
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 Big conspiracy vs bad information handed to Trump rewritten by a Russian who’s paid to tilt the campaign. Hm. One’s a simpler more direct connection. But yeah, all you said is possible, sure. Takes an awful lot of players to perform this grand worldwide spectacle, but sure, it’s possible.
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 It’s also possible USA and Russia are colluding to put on the spectacle of WWIII to improve both of our economies, have proxy wars with abandon for resources, we both get excuses to spy on our own citizens with justification. The difference this time around would be that Russia can _also_ benefit more from a new cold war, just as the US benefited last time. A kind of “win win” with known enemies who know each others chess moves.See? Easy to have plausible conspiracies.
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 ⊥good points there. I try not to get TOO stressed but I was ‘lucky’ enough to see the end of the cold war. yet, my 6th grade notebook was filled with nuclear bomb drawings – I was good at them. I was sure that it was over any day… just one day wake up a bright flash and vaporized.
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He’s got the Radio voice and the style. His policies? Eh, too evangelical for my tastes. They won’t affect me much but I wouldn’t want to be a women in his USA.But his style is fine. He also supports arming the rebels in the middle east and fighting Russia.
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 He’s 70 years old. I don’t count on a President to make it all the way through at that age. I gotta look at the VP equally. With the amount of people he’s pissed off, not just in the USA but in many foreign countries already, an assassination isn’t out of the question. So, what then?Gotta think of these things.
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 Presidents can’t be pharaohs. Most of what he’s promised he can’t possibly deliver. He doesn’t have that kind of power nor will he. Departments push back when they don’t like a president’s policies, not just in Congress and the Court, but also the Military branches and all of the other organizations that make up the federal government.Then you have the states and THEIR rights who can push back as well.Even if Trump HIMSELF doesn’t wanna do it, he probably won’t have any choice in the matter. These things have been brewing for decades, through many presidencies. The person there for four years doesn’t have a heck of a lot of say in the matter. Well, they can *say* what they like, but if it doesn’t go their way, it’s “well, Congress wouldn’t let me – my shackles!” – to me, he’ll be a Lame Duck President more than anything, and these things will continue regardless.
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 Oh the OP?“Hillary clinton will start a civil war and world war if elected. please consider this before voting.”A threat + fear mongering. You know what’ll happen? More pundits on the right complaining about her every move. They’ll have a field day for four years: perpetual complainers and gossips with big followings.No civil war. And world war iii? Shit, I grew up with that threat every day. You get used to it.
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 When the entire govt is just about pro-war, she’s just being the mouthpiece of what’s ALREADY in the works and going to happen no matter who is there.He just gets to say, “Hey, *I* didn’t want it – must be [x]’s fault”.
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 I doubt I’ll notice a shred of difference whoever wins. Good thing about being a white male. But while Clinton won’t piss off nearly even man being in office, Trump will piss off nearly every woman if he’s in office, and nearly every black person, etc.
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 “It also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds” – he just dissed 1/2 his base in one line. Ok, that’s mean. 1/4.Thing is, foreign hackers _are_ a reality. Is it true in this case? Well, unless she’s got a shit load of people all lying to her, which is possible of course, probably.
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 t’s possible with EITHER of them.In one case, Clinton’s being the mouthpiece of the existing administration, with the intel from the FBI and everywhere else leading to this conclusion.In the other case, Trump gets to say, “Well, you know *I* didn’t want it but The System did, so it’s not MY fault we’re in WWIII”But either way, what’s been in the world for a long time, will happen regardless.
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 You know Trump’s MO. Retaliate by blame. It doesn’t make him a bad person. I dont’ think he’s a bad person. He just blames. So, if we’re headed to WW3 (regardless of who gets in – Trump won’t be that powerful to stop systems that have been in play for a very long time now), he can just do this… and he stays clean as an angel.
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  I know. It’s tempting too. I understand why people want to believe it’s possible. But the desire to increase coal and oil production combined with an alliance with Russia means, fear of the PetroDollar being switched to PetroRubels or PetroYen, and we’ll have to ramp up oil exports in order to compete in the global economy and even locally, because we’ll no longer have the backing of OPEC.But yeah, I don’t want war with Russia either, of course. But I doubt he or Jill Stein could bring it. Nice sentiment though.
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  Besides, a US/Russia alliance means war with the EU and China.
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 Civil Rights brought in the beginnings of specified protections, the “start of PC culture” as it were.[PC actually started in the US Military, long before the Universities applied it to their etiquette guidelines.. which unfortunately went militant after about 7-8 years in the 90s]I bring up women’s right to vote ’cause I was thinking of Trump’s son who posted a thing that “If only men voted”… so I had that in mind.
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 Oh I’m all for free speech. One of our states, I forgot which one, recently granted almost complete free speech to high school and college students.. one of only 10 states that has ANY 1/2 decent free speech rights for the, and one of only three with comprehensive free speech rights for them.But free speech is hard to protect – plus you have “freedom to” and “freedom from”, which complicated freedom issues. It’s never super simple.
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  The thing is: we’ve been going in this direction for a long time. Who can best navigate the ship? The glacier has been in our sights for a long time – and steering the ship properly requires someone who has all hands on deck, not a maverick captain. Maybe when thing settle down, we can worry about being able to say whatever we want without consequence.
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 It’s not gonna happen Scott. He’s selling used cars here.He won’t have the kind of powers he promises. Heads aren’t going to roll. Things aren’t going to change. Clinton isn’t going to jail. There will be no wall. Trump might have impeachment proceedings put against him by Congress, in which case we end up with evangelical President Pence though, who _does_ understand about being the “voice of the govt’ which is all Clinton is being. If he starts trying to executive order everything, how long will he last? A month? Two? Then it’s President Pence. That won’t affect me any as a white male, but I wouldn’t want to be a women in Pence’s America.. or Trump’s for that matter.
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 I dunno. I’m independent. H-Ross Perot both times. Clinton’s a tough shelled bitch but can get things done. Trump’s a boob.
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 He was a war monger like the rest of them. I’ve known Presidents well from Reagan -> Obama and never saw any real difference between them.
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I was raised in what _would- be called the “Christian left” but nobody really uses that term.Went through a few Christian and non-Christian groups, – Methodist, Unitarian, Episcopal, nearly Roman Catholic, ended up Eastern Orthodox for 5 years (which straddles both sides of the political spectrum, although they have a right-lean), now I’ve been agnostic for, gosh 14 years now I guess.In every group, evangelicals were seen as somewhat of an alien species. That’s not to say they are, but it’s the prejudice I was raised with.
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Seems to me Trump should’ve ran a better campaign.
 He could’ve easily captured BOTH you and me AND women as voters. After all, he had a lot going for him before he started.
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  In theory, if he had any political clout. That’s the shame of it: he put himself into a powerless political position.This war machine is old and powerful. Pence is smart enough to recognize it and he speaks the government’s bipartisan position on the matter.All Trump will be able to do is say, “See, I tried. But they wouldn’t let me”.
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 Jill Stein’s saying the same thing as Trump. But it’d be the same with her. Lame Duck’d with either one of them. I hate America’s war policy but I always did. If Trump wasn’t a clueless doof, I’d consider voting for him. I still haven’t totally written him off believe it or not. But he hasn’t given a show of competence. That’s what went against him in my mind: He comes across to me as a Johnson.
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 She’s speaking the bipartisan opinion of the US military, both houses of congress, both republican and democrat position. Executive Office unfortunately can’t stop this tank from rolling through. It would take a complete changeover of Congress to even THINK about seeing that happening.You can tell me about the video. I usually find videos boring to watch.
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 Like I said, it’s a shame about Trump. He focused in the wrong directions. He has no political saavy to handle foreign relations properly, has ideas that will just get blocked by Congress and/or by department after department and pushback from the states for his federal policies if he tries to Executive Order them. The USA is a big place, lots of government. “Cleaning house” the promise of some politician at every election cycle.I think what nearly kills it for me is his message to blacks, “What have you got to lose?”Well, a lot. The devil you know or the devil you don’t? The boring old same old politician in Clinton, who has the backing and support of both parties, understands the US Military, know how to give ‘the people’ just enough to keep them from revolting en masse. [her speech about BLM was on point, and even though she’s even more “law and order” than Trump claims to be, she’ll at least give a perfunctory listen to their issues].Or… straightforward, easily manipulated Trump? Here’s the thing:His positions are simple. He’s transparent. A transparent politician. This is GREAT for citizens: That’s easy to understand. But on the world stage with more saavy politicians? It’s disaster. Disaster.Russia is a WEAK country that focuses more on image of power than power.WWIII isn’t happening. Both countries see the advantage of returning to a Cold War economy.

Both sides bump up threats, we end up at standoff. Both economies win.

PS – the Russian dude in that article? is a loon. He more dramatic than a british tabloid.

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 I know. I’m throwing away my ideals here. But here’s the thing too:A US/Russian alliance = war with China + NATO
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  You see one step ahead. I see a few more steps ahead.
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NATO has been encroaching on prior Russian territory. Trump’s not a fan of NATO. Russia’s not a fan of NATO. Who makes up the NATO countries?With a US/Russia as allies, NATO becomes the automatic enemies.
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 I personally want to say “fuck you, NATO + EU, you failed” and go with a US/Russia alliance against the EU and the World Bank and strongarm OPEC so the Saudi’s play nice.But I dunno. I just can’t see Trump as the guy for it.
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 I see the devil I know as better than the devil I don’t.
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She’s not though. Almost any politician in her place will have the exact same strategy. It’s not her strategy. It’s the US military strategy. It’s the strategy of both houses of Congress and both parties. It’s the strategy of the State Department. It’s the US Strategy, period.I’d rather have a navigator than a guy who stays in captain’s quarters with his arms crossed, not willing to face the rough waters ahead.
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 I admire you for voting with your conscience though. In theory, I believe in that too. In the end, I will, too, but just as there’s never been a politician who promises the moon with the exact flavor of cheese I like, I don’t see it here either, whether in Trump or Clinton.
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  I’m in Florida, so I pretty much *have* to vote and vote carefully. This is why I don’t decide until the very end and have all of the information on hand.

I’m in one of the 10 states where the votes _really_ count in a big way. This is why I weight things out carefully.

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